Wednesday, February 13, 2008

Unbelievable - Attempt at Ammunition Ban in Arizona!

If it were not right this very moment still available on the Arizona Legislature website I would not believe it. Liberal gun grabbing Democrats have sponsored HB 2833 - legislation that would require all ammunition sold in Arizona as of Jan 1 2009 to have unique serial numbers on both the bullet & the INSIDE of each cartridge casing of every single cartridge of all calibers of handgun and so-called "assault weapon" ammunition plus it also stipulates that it applies to all calibers of ammunition (I'm not sure why they even bothered mentioning handguns & assault weapons since they then used a blanket to have the bill apply to all calibers of ammunition). Arizona Citizens would be required to dispose of all existing ammunition that does not have the required serial numbers by Jan 1 2011.

Get a load of this nonsense:

(a) The base of the bullet and the inside of the cartridge casing of each round in a box of ammunition are coded with the same serial number.

(b) Each serial number is engraved in such a manner that it is highly likely to permit identification after ammunition discharge and bullet impact.

How in the world is a manufacturer supposed to put a unique serial number on the INSIDE of a cartridge casing! Additionally, have these morons ever seen what an expelled bullet looks like after impact? They actually expect a serial number to be identifiable? Unbelievable!

All environmentalists should be outraged at the fact that shell casings which are currently reused many times & then recycled would no longer be reusable since they would have a unique serial number on them that can not be removed or destroyed under penalty of law. Hello Arizona landfill from billions of unusable shell casings.

It would also add a 1/2 cent tax to every single round of ammunition sold. A 550 round box of .22 caliber handgun ammunition would have $2.75 added for this tax on top of the normal retail cost & the other taxes that we already pay. A case of 5000 rounds of ammunition would have an extra tax of $25! Of course that would be NOTHING compared to the huge increase in manufacturing costs if any manufacturer managed to comply with the ridiculous requirements.

Every vendor that sells Ammo to Arizona residents would be required to register with the Arizona DPS, record the date of each transaction, purchaser name, Drivers license number or Social Security #, birth date, serial numbers of all cartridges sold, plus all other information requested by DPS. With that open end DPS could also ask for my Mother's maiden name or for my mailing address or the names of all future unborn children. Seems fairly wide open to me. It would also require the Arizona DPS to create & maintain a database to contain all of this information. Vendors would be required to keep all of these records for a minimum of 3 years on the business premises. Manufacturers would be required to maintain records for 7 years on their business premises.

Listed Bill sponsors are Representative Martha Garcia (Democrat), Representative Linda Lopez (Democrat), Representative Manuel Alvarez (Democrat), Representative David Bradley (Democrat), & Representative Cloves Cambell Jr. (Democrat).

This bill is so absurd that it is obvious that this is simply a back door attempt to ban all ammunition sales in Arizona, effectively disarming all law abiding citizens, which would only leave the criminals armed with their black market illegal ammo. If you are an Arizona resident, please contact your representative to ask that they strongly oppose this ridiculous bill.

The NRA-ILA has issued a news release related to this bill.

1st Update: The source of this absurd legislation now being proposed in multiple States can be found here. It looks like the Bill Sponsors simply copied & pasted the sample legislation & then inserted Arizona DPS where required as it is a perfect match. Also be sure to check out this nicely organized list of all the bills that you should go fight.

2nd Update: I've contacted both of my Arizona House Representatives in addition to my Arizona Senator asking them to strongly oppose this and any future forms of this Bill. I just received the following response from Arizona State Senator Jack Harper:
Thank you, Dustin. I appreciate hearing from you. This bill will not even get a hearing as long as the Republicans control the House and Senate. State Representative Judy Burges and I will mail you some correspondence, soon.

State Senator Jack Harper
I received this response from Representative Judy Burges:
You have my no vote. What a waste of money and time. J
I will update this blog entry with further details as I receive them. :)

3rd update: An interesting twist:
Little digging and poking and I think we have the culprits.

The core legislation document was written by a person called Briahna Taylor for the law firm Gordon Thomas Honeywell.

As if by magic one of their clients is called Ammunition Coding System.

This appears to be a shell for a company called Ravensforge LLC

Ravensforge inventors of record are Mr Steve Mace of Seattle, Washington and Mr Russel H Ford also of Seattle

As if by magic they have a patent pending for this magical system

It is very interesting to see that as part of their About Us mission statement they boldly state that the implementation requires legislation.

Interestingly enough they also intend to charge a licensing fee for EVERY bullet sold as well.....
4th Update: Cam Edwards interviewed Russel H Ford on Feb 19th who confirmed the above. CCRKBA has issued this related press release requesting an official investigation, & Larry Pratt has this to say about the issue. You can watch the interview on youtube in following 5 parts: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5.

5th Update: Dec 2008 Update from NRA-ILA. More from the NSSF.

6th Update: Save $10-$50 by Joining the NRA TODAY to help fight this and other evil efforts!


Anonymous said...

They tried to run this through in IN as well. The bill called for an additional cost of .05 cents per cartridge. This was killed quickly as it should have been. The thing that bothers me the most is the waste of time and taxpayer money that went into creating a bill that is so ill thought. I think it was just another attempt to drive up costs in order to discourage current firearms and future firearms owners from purchasing guns.

mrbearpaw60 said...

I would guess that we should try as "We the People" to pass a bill that would remove the right of all politicians from having or possessing a weapon of any kind and no body guards who have a weapon either. Just because they are a politician does not nean they need protection from any one but the local police when called. As we would have only the local police. If they would eventially remove our rights given to us by the Second amendment. The Right To BEar Arms.
we should take away their rights also.

Dennis Ketchum

DarwinOSX said...

I sent the following e-mail to the sponsors of this bill and to the Governor and my local representatives. We need to get the word out.

I am a registered Democrat and a 12 year Marine Corps veteran who is combat disabled. I pay attention to the issues and I vote. I am also an NRA member and own handguns to protect myself and my family and for sport shooting. This micro-stamping of ammunition is foolish in the details and is clearly a backhanded and not so subtle attempt to begin handgun control by making ammunition more costly and difficult to buy. This is a violation of the rights I have fought and been injured for and seen my friends die for. I intend to use my vote accordingly.

Dustin said...

Terry: Thank you for your service to our Country & for standing by my side to fight to keep our right to bear arms & ammunition. We will not loose this battle so long as there are still good men & women in our Country who are willing to stand up & stay active in our political processes.

Anonymous said...

no really, think about it, the Democrats are just afraid that they'll be shot by random people below a 75 IQ (who are allowed to get guns). Their such cowards. Just cause they might be preventing convicts, gangsters or people unfit this does mean that they're out to get you. And YES, adding 5 cents to a bullet case really does mean that they want to ban guns worldwide. We must put a stop to this. If democrats are so afraid of this (in the words of the guy 3 comments above me) "we should take away their rights."

NotClauswitz said...

Sounds like the crap Arnold signed-off on here in CA. Does AZ contain any "potential range" for the semi-extinct Condor? Then look for a lead ammo ban to emerge, including .22LR - unless it's a FMJ .22LR...

Anonymous said...


Thanks again for bringing this to my attention. I've contacted the company and invited them to appear on Cam and Company. We'll see if they respond.

Dustin said...

dirtcrashr: Yes they already have an "experimental introduction" of the Condor in Arizona going on, and the environmentalists are already pushing the Arizona Game & Fish Commission to ban lead ammo in the hunting regs. Luckily so far the response from gun owners & hunters has convinced the AZ Game & Fish Commission to stick with leaving the type of ammo up to the hunters.

Cam: You are very welcome. I'd sure love to hear that discussion - I hope they accept your invitation. :)

Anonymous said...

As a Jewess in the US, I would like to remind all that America wasn't won with a registered gun, and that criminals are stopped by FIREARMS, not by talk. That is why all REAL Americans put our 2nd Amendment FIRST!!

NotClauswitz said...

Keep the condor OUT! You gotta get rid of that cancerous fossil. It's nothing more than a wedge-issue and political platform to drive apart the foundations of hunting and game management.
In CA our Fish & Game Dept has been so thoroughly taken-over by Ecoweenies who gladly rolled-over on the "Condor Issue" even though the science is NOT there - it's faked-up presentations, invented hypothesis, and slight of hand measurements.
We now have a .22LR ban in effect since they are all lead softpoints, for anywhere that the Condor "might" inhabit - which is anywhere at all since nobody knows...

Anonymous said...

I like bearpaws idea - let them, the "elite" feel safe without their special privileges and armed escorts.

Az Game & Fish DOES NOT support any ammo ban. In 2005, they gave coupons to hunters who had a succesful tag draw in condor areas for FREE nonlead ammo. (2 boxes)
A survey was used to sort out feedback from the hunters about the ammo. Some loved it, some hated it and for some it was a wash.
The other alternative was to request that all lead ammo shot game and gut piles be removed thereby removing the possibility that Conan the Condor would eat any lead. This seems to be working well enough that no ammo ban is needed.

mrbearpaw60 said...

Buck Miller (Bad American)

I think owning a gun doesn't
make you a killer, it makes you a smart American.

I Am the Liberal-Progressives
Worst Nightmare. I am an American.

I believe that if you are
selling me a Big Mac, do it in English.

I believe if you don't like the
way things are here, go back to where you came from and change your
own country! This is AMERICA.

This was sent to me by my son, If you want the complete email. send me an email and I will forward it to you.


mrbearpaw60 said...

If you would like to read my blog, go to:

Anonymous said...

Thank you for posting this. This is typical of what is comming down the road. If they can not get the guns, they will go after the ammuniton.

Keep up the good work on your Blog site.

Clark -

Unknown said...

I have seen comments about Dumbocrats and liberals taking away gun rights. I am comforted by the idea that a democrat can not take away my rights!! As these rights are not given by humans but by God.

Anonymous said...

I theorize that the serialization is a publicity attempt as well as a marketing ploy by the ammo coding company and weenie politicians looking for some cool points.
Good initiative, bad judgement on their part.
Whatever we can do to get the guns away from the criminals is a good thing.
Taking rights away from us law abiding citizens is a bad thing.
Yes, I carry.
Yes, I hunt.
I'll be reloading my own ammo in short order too.
Tell me how we're gonna serialize that?
Rest assured that I have already spoken with my representatives, and spoken my peace.
Serialization of ammo is a ridiculous attempt to further regulate our rights under the Second Amendment, and a flawed motive at that.
And, as far as my wife to be and I are concerned, you can have my guns when you pry them from my cold dead fingers.
Semper Fi!

Anonymous said...

They'll going to BAN handloading/reloading too!

NotClauswitz said...

"Serialization" like the Condor and lead-ammo ban is nothing but a means to separate you and your gun from your ammunition.

Anonymous said...

HB 2833 is a ruse. Just read and check out the following:

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 2:06 am Post subject:


From the highroad website...

The core legislation document in AZ was written by a person called Briahna Taylor from the law firm Gordon Thomas Honeywell.

One of their clients is called Ammunition Coding System. (

This appears to be a shell for a company called Ravensforge LLC. Ravensforge inventors of record are Mr Steve Mace of Seattle, Washington and Mr. Russel H. Ford also of Seattle. They have a patent pending for this system.

It is very interesting to see that as part of their "About Us" mission statement they boldly state that the implementation requires legislation.

Interestingly enough they also intend to charge a licensing fee for EVERY bullet sold as well.....

All of use folks in AZ should be asking the following about this bill to our legislators:

1. This legislation is only being pushed by a single vendor as a commercial enterprise. In effect using the legislation as their sales force (without paying them.)
2. This system is proprietary and with patent pending will lock out any other provider
3. The system has not had any validation, peer review, etc
4. The system will act as an inherent restraint on interstate trade
5. The information provided via the system will contain data that is generally regarded as PII (Personally Identifiable Information) and as such has legislative protection. Due to it's nature, the system may broach 5th amendment self incrimination protection.

If you go to the following website (, you will see this exact same legislation is being pushed in the following states:

2008 Legislation
Arizona House Bill 2833

California Senate Bill 997 (Carried Over from 2007)

Hawaii House Bill 2392
Hawaii Senate Bill 2020
Hawaii Senate Bill 2076
Hawaii House Resolution 82-07 (Carried Over from 2007) Hawaii Concurrent Resolution 104-06 (Carried Over from 2007)

Illinois House Bill 4258
Illinois House Bill 4259
Illinois House Bill 4269
Illinois House Bill 4349
Illinois Senate Bill 1095 (Carried Over from 2007)

Indiana House Bill 1260

Maryland House Bill 517

Mississippi Senate Bill 2286

New York
New York House Bill 6920 (Carried Over from 2007) New York House Bill 7300 (Carried Over from 2007) New York Senate Bill 1177 (Carried Over from 2007) New York Senate Bill 3731 (Carried Over from 2007)

Pennsylvania House Bill

Tennessee House Bill 3245
Tennessee Senate Bill 3395

Washington House Bill 3359

They are everywhere - they the Liberals have decided that with no AMMO is eaiser to legislate than Gun Bans.

Anonymous said...

Wow, as an Australian I cannot help but get a giggle out of this nonsense. Now that it has become evident that licensing and registration is not politically palatable in most US states, I have heard some of the most far out, impossible and yes, even funny propositions put forward by the anti-gunners I have ever heard.

I think this has to go down as one of the funniest and most ridiculous yet...projectile serial numbers...hahahahahahahha! AHHHHAHAHAHA! I swear this just gave me the best laugh I have had in a while, a big thank you to Arizona politicians for this joke that sounds like a skit from a sketch show!

John Richardson said...

Thanks for all the work you've done at digging down to who really is behind this. It seemed really weird to see a bill like this first introduced in Mississippi and then a bunch of other states. The one in Pennsylvania charges 5 cents per round to subsidize the database or an extra $1 per 20 round box of hunting rifle ammo.

The one thing I'd urge people to do is check out who is the sponsor in each and every state. The thing I found in PA is that they all were gun-banners from Philadelphia with only two exceptions.

It hasn't hit North Carolina yet but it will only be a matter of time unless we nip this thing in the bud.

The other thing to look for is campaign contributions from Ravensford, its founders, or their lobbiests to the introducers of the bill. I think you might be able to make a case for bribery or corruption. Now wouldn't that make some nice headlines!

Constitutionally Armed said...

wow. unbelievable... Just unbelievable. It is happening everywhere it seems.

Anonymous said...

The Arizona Citizens Defense League reports that HB 2833 is now DEAD (it failed to move before the deadline. Go to to see the status of this bill & others). However, this does not mean that the fight is over. If anything, we need to remain ever watchful because we all know that things like this have a habit of turning up again just like the proverbial bad penny.

Here is a list of the Representatives who supported this piece of garbage:

Martha Garcia, Democrat(District 13, running for re-election this year)
Linda Lopez, Democrat (District 29)
Manuel V. Alvarez, Democrat (District 25)
David Bradley, Democrat (District 28, running for re-election this year)
Clovis D. Campbell Jr., Democrat (District 16, running for re-election this year)

Despite the fact that HB 2833 is now dead, it is vital that we let these elected officials know just how displeased we all are by not voting for them in November & removing them from office.