Wednesday, May 28, 2008

Canada: Anti-gun Toronto Mayor David Miller

Unbelievable: Anti-gun Toronto Canada Mayor David Miller wants to close down gun ranges:

Toronto Mayor David Miller says he’s in favor of a report calling for recreational shooting ranges in the city to be shut down. He says nobody can deny that hobby directly results in people being shot and killed on the streets. Miller also wants to see his city have the power to block gun manufacturers and wholesalers from opening new plants or warehouses. He added that recreational shooting is a hobby that creates danger to others because guns are stolen routinely from so-called legal owners.
So-called legal owners? Nobody can deny that hobby directly results in people being shot? You bet I can deny it. Thugs don't practice at the range, they practice in the hood. I'd call his statements a load of hogwash, but even the hogs wouldn't eat that garbage for breakfast so I'll leave the hogs out of this one.

Update 1: Canadians gun owners fire back!
Canadian Institute for Legislative Action (CILA) Executive Director Tony Bernardo stated, “If war is what David Miller wants, war is what he’ll get. But he needs to remember, there is one of him and two million of us”.


Update 2: More details available at TorontoTheBad.com.

50 comments:

Trevor said...

The sad thing is that this man is in charge of a city of millions. He spreads this pointless illogical twaddle around and how do responsible citizens combat the sort of nanny mentality he is perpetrating? It takes more time than most people are willing to commit.

Can the mayor prove that recreational shooting increases levels of gun violence on the street? Of course not, because his argument is utter bullshit. Nevertheless, average schmucks will hear this or read this and they will absorb it as fact. After all the man is the mayor of a major city so he's got instant credibility right?

Dustin said...

Sad but true.

Wayne said...

Gun Control in Toronto and Canada


Why Is Mayor Miller having so much trouble understanding human nature and cause and effect?

When the gun registry was first announced, the warning was out that the incidence of illegal gun possession and violence would increase rather than decrease. Why? As with any commodity reduced in access, it becomes more valuable. In this case the illegal gun runners and drug dealers now command higher prices for small arms thus making for a larger marketplace than prior to registration.

Mr. Miller now believes that by attacking innocent responsible firearm holders he can somehow stop the lucrative illegal firearms market. Obviously there is no connection between the two situations. He is in error suggesting that a mass theft of firearms from private collectors or sports shooters is an important contributrer to street available firearms. That is, unless there has been information leakage from the national gun registry in which case a serious and responsible inquiry needs to happen at the federal level.

Mr. Miller, if he gets his way, should be warned that the consequences of his desire would in fact spawn a more serious situation than that which we already have. As it stands now, a potential home invader may well be concerned that if he/she enters a certain residence, there may possibly be firearms within which would threaten their attempt. On the other hand, with a total legal firearm ban, such perpetrators would feel quite comfortable staging any home invasion without concern. How would Mr. Miller feel if such happened at his home? And is he suggesting that no one (including himself) should have any right to defend family life within the confines of one’s own home?

His response is typical of our times where those in authority take the easy way out by persecuting the innocent because they are available and the guilty are ignored because there is not the will or imagination to deal with the real problem.

There is no doubt that there is great fear and frustration for all of us in this growing serious treat but there if no point fighting for a situation which cannot improve the problem at hand. He would better direct his energy at the federal government (as does Premier McGuinty for his needs) for harsher consequences and immediate deportation, where appropriate, for the perpetrators of illegal gun possession and crime.

Eric said...

If there were any intelligent life in Toronto all they would have to do is to consult history to see a parallel with Mr Miller. When Hitler came to power (legally elected) he had no comprehensive plan to combat Germany's post war economic woes. Instead he blamed the jews and other non arayans. David Miller has no plan to combat gun crime so he blames honest law-abiding firearm owners and other non-socialists.

I think that all firearm owners in Toronto will be subjected to Miller's version of "kristalnacht".

Anonymous said...

I am sick and tired of people like Mayor Miller and their anti-American attitudes. I am vacationing in Toronto right now and I am sorry I came here. Never again. Why should I come to Canada and drop two or three thousand dollars when the people who live here don't wan't us here? What was I thinking? If Canadians hate us so much I will solve the problem by no longer coming here. I will encourage everyone I know to do the same as well.

JP

Verdon Brown said...

The sad thing is that you handgun owners keep saying the same bull all the time. Its a funny thing that you see noone else on the petitions agreeing with you other then handgun owners. If you would do your research you would see that there is thousands and thousands of names going to Ottawa every day through online petitions and groups across Canada. It is just not the city of Toronto speaking up, it is people from BC to Newfoundland who is speaking out against handguns.

You go on with your mumble jumbo saying how the registered handguns are not the problem. To a criminal who does these terrible acts of crime, they dont care if it comes across the border or is stolen from private homes and gun shops right here in Canada as long as they can get axcess to them.

What David Millier and i are trying to tell the rest of Canada is were not just trying to get rid of the registered handguns, we are trying to get rid of all the handguns. Which this will be impossible to do but we will get rid of most of them and it will save lives. Whether if its one life or thousands of lives, isnt it worth it.

A handgun is made for one thing and one thing only, to kill people. It is the weapon of choice for criminals because they can conceil it and hide it easier. There is a difference between rifles and shotguns, a shotgun and a rifle have a purpose in society such as big game hunting, small game hunting, sealing industry in Newfoundland and ranchers out west to keep there fields clear of rodents. A handgun is just for a hobby or used for practicing shooting, usually a target of a person.

The difference between a collection of coins and stamps, if they are stolen and get out in society they dont kill anyone. I sujest you handgun owners change your hobby and collection.

By the way, i am a registered gun owner of rifles and shotguns. We are not asking everybody to give up all firearms. We are asking people to give up certain firearms. A handgun compared to a rifle or shotgun is like comparing a french poodle to a pet bull.

What David Millier is doing is 100% right, he is speaking for the rest of the people in the Country who has lost loved ones through handgun violence and the rest of the people in this Country that doesnt want handguns here. So the next time you talk about David Millier, you are also talking about the rest of the Country besides for handgun owners. If he is out to lunch like you say he is, why is there 70-80 thousand names on his petition and still growing. Also theres thousands on my own and still growing.

By banding handguns these criminals caught the first time with a handgun will get a stiffer automatic jail sentence, not a slap on the wrist. This may stop the criminals by using them again 6 months or a year down the road. These criminals just laugh because they know when they get caught the first time they will get basically nothing but if these handguns were ban they would not laugh because they would get a stiffer sentence.

You talk about the crime rate going up in other counties when handguns were ban, what you dont talk about is how much further they would of went up if they werent ban. By the way, this is Canada. Not other Counties, we can learn from the other Countries by there mistakes from waiting to long for a ban.

So David Millier, groups across Canada, victims mothers and other groups, keep up the good work because i will still be continuing my mission to ban handguns in Canada other then law enforcement.

Please support these online petitions. Mine, www.gopeition.com/online/16809.html and David Milliers, www.toronto.ca and click on the link to ban handguns. You can also feel free to write or send an email to Stockwell day in Ottawa and to Mr. Steven Harpour. Remember, together we can save lives and all Cities in Canada are getting bigger.

A voice for Ephraim Brown,
Verdon Brown
NO HANDGUNS, NO FUNERALS!

Dustin said...

Verdon Brown, this is my response.

Verdon Brown said...

Dustin,
You are a perfect example of why society should not have handguns. You are talking about police, they are the protectors of the world. They are the law.

Then you speak about how you cannot conceil a rifle and a shotgun. You are exactly right. But you can conceil a handgun. Do you know how many criminals use the same exscuse you just used to carry handguns? Just like the exscuse you used. The wild west days are over. This is Canada, not the States.

By the way, these criminals and younge punks who use handguns in crimes probubly wouldnt have enough nerve to come and face me and you with a knife or bat. They choose a handgun because they can shoot around the corner and run. This is a cowards way of killing, and cowards they are. So you cannot compaire everyday things you need to a handgun. Such as i have said before, the ban on all handguns, registered and non registered will keep then from getting axcess to handguns. We can learn from other Countries by banding them sooner, not later. As you can see from all the other Countries.

As for satistics, every one is different for every Country, province and State. I sujest you use common sence.

I do not think Canada is better then any other Country, just that Canada is a new Country and growing fast. The first step to a problem is to make it stop before it happens.

Once again, i would like to mention about the crime rate which you have said still have roles in Countries. Why don't you mention about the part where they would of rose even higher if the ban wanst in effect.

I would like to carry on this debate further but i have alot to do to try and accomplish my task to ban handguns in Canada other then law enforcement in this Country.

A voice for Ephraim Brown,
verdon Brown,
NO HANDGUNS, NO FUNERALS !

Dustin said...

Verdon Brown, the mistake you are making is that you assume that by making it illegal for law abiding citizens to own guns you will somehow reduce violent crime. In every instance a handgun ban was instituted, violent crime increased rather than decreased. It is a simple fact, no comparison between countries is required. You simply look at the violent crime in the same country reported the same way before & after the ban took effect. In some instances violent crime using handguns either remained the same or in a few even decreased somewhat, but violent crime using knives & other weapons of opportunity increased even more causing a net increase in violent crime overall, while other areas nearby without the ban actually experienced a net decrease in violent crime during the same period.

You can also see that in the States in the US that have passed laws to allow law abiding citizens to get concealed carry permits over the past 20 years or so the violent crime actually went DOWN after they started issuing the permits.

From that evidence, your ASSUMPTION that violent crime could have increased even more without the ban than it did with the ban is simply invalid.

Your assumption that the fact that criminals illegally conceal illegal handguns is a valid reason to ban handguns from the hands of law abiding citizens is also invalid. You say it is worth it if it saves but one life. The real question to ask is what is the net result when you subtract any of a few lives saved by a ban vs all of the new lives lost as disarmed victims are ravaged, raped, and murdered by still very armed criminals. Look at Washington DC that has had a complete ban on handguns for 30 years while continuing to confiscate thousands of handguns from criminals every single year. Based on the evidence I've seen it would be a landslide negative result many times over to institute a ban.

You see, in the US ALONE, there are over 2 Million cases of DEFENSIVE uses of firearms every single year, many of them with handguns.

There will always be bad people in this world that we need to be able & willing to defend ourselves & more importantly our families from. Laying down our arms for some imagined level of "safety" (that is nothing more than an illusion) is neither practical nor wise. You will suddenly find yourself defenseless while the violent criminals laugh in your face.

I'd rather have my handgun & never need it, than to risk finding myself empty handed in the face of great need of one. My family is too precious to me to leave myself defenseless. I'll probably never need my fire extinguishers, but I'll be perfectly happy if the money I have invested in them goes to waste.

Anonymous said...

VERDON, it scares me that you actually own firearms. In my humble opinion, you haven't the capacity of mental faculty to possess them especially if you also have access to ammunition because a certain amount of logical thought based upon actual facts and conditions are required in this manner. You obviously haven't the capacity to properly, rationally, perform those tasks. I could train you to do so but I don't believe you would be willing to endure the pain and hard work required. We are not talking hear of things inconsequential, if you make a mistake in these matters other people will die and in this case without the ability to defend themselves and others.

Police Officers can't be everywhere and I can assure you cannot be counted upon to be there when you need them most. Criminals avoid such confrontations. A say this as a former Police Officer who has a Police Officer friend laying in the hospital at this moment, the victim of a criminal assault with a baseball bat. The reason the suspect isn't dead at this monment is because my friend was protecting others when assaulted and the good help of an anonymous women, who beat the assailant off of my friend with a pool cue.

I know what I'm talking about Verdon and I hereby certify to the world that you and others like you are at best, idiots.

Anonymous said...

I apologize for the mis-spelling s and long windedness.

Wendy Weinbaum said...

Verdon Brown's IGNORANT remarks illustrate why so many people refer to his country as CanaDUHH!

Bill O' Rites said...

The UK is a prime example of why the ownership of handguns as a means of self defence by law abiding citizens SHOULDN'T be proscribed.
Our violent crime & burglary rates are nearly DOUBLE those of the US because criminals have no need to fear their victims.
Making handguns illegal here has done absolutely NOTHING to disarm criminals, nor have increased penalties for illegal possession - after all, they're already prepared to break laws on theft & violence, so why should they pay any more attention to a ban on handguns?

Verdon said...

We will let the people of this great Country Canada be the judge of jury about handguns. I would stay and abate more about handguns but i have to much to do to ban hanguns in Canada.

A voice for Ephraim Brown.
Verdon Brown.

Anonymous said...

Mr. BROWN, and all others who have commented so far, while I am deeply sadened by the fact that you lost your grandson, I beleive, through the illegal use of an illegal handgun in the hands of some punk, banning handguns is NOT the answer,and at the end of day, cooler heads will prevail and we will start attacking the root of the problem, which is SOCIATIAL. Guns, knive, bats or whatever, do not kill people. People kill people. We need to control the illegal flow of ALL illegal guns, not just handguns. We need some sober, rational thinking here, not retoric. I think your well intentioned energies could and should be, put to better use , attacking as I have said, the REAL problems which start at the social level and work their way through society for better, or , in a lot of cases, for the worst.

Verdon Brown said...

Anonymous,
It is true what you say, ''people kill people'' but people need handguns to kill people because usually the people are criminals and wouldnt have enough nerve to use a everyday item as you just said. Most of them would not have the nerve to face me or you with these things. But with a handgun they can hide behind a corner and shoot, and then run away.

Also, we need more then just handguns ban. We need stiffer penalties against these criminals who use handguns in these terrible crimes. People who are caught with handguns the first time should get stiffer penalties. We need all three combined.

If these younge punks were caught with a ban handgun and got an automatic 10 years prison they wouldnt be back in 6 months or a year shooting someone with hanguns.

So Anonymous use your common sence, you cannot ban every day utilities. We need all three of these things to save lives in society.

But i am a open person, i would like you thank you for sharing your comment. If people do not abate this problem there will never be a solition.

Thank you.
A voice for Ephraim Brown
Verdon Brown

Anonymous said...

So Verdon Brown owns long guns and wants to ban handguns. Isn't that 'a communist in Nazi Germany wanting to round up all the Jews"

You are a liar, the "I won long guns, but want to ban handguns is a ruse".

We have a term in duck hunting, "Decoy"

Anonymous said...

BTW, rifles and shotguns are way dealier than handguns.

I would rather have a shotgun at close quarters than a pistol.

Anonymous said...

I've been doing a lot of reading on different mass shootings around the world and have come to this conclusion : in these shootings the people that plan them ( not the actual shooters themselves)are probably stimulated into orgasmic glee when it happens. It just adds to their cause ( see, we told you guns are bad) when it happens. And most times their little robots ( Lepene, Harris, Kliebold, Gill, Cho etc.) take their own lives to make interrogation impossible. Occasionally they mess up ( Port Arthur). Just think what a mass shooting now would do to help David Miller's cause. He, along with Wendy Cucier and you Mr. Brown would take to the airwaves with your fake indignation and horror while barely being able to conceal your glee . As to my conclusion it is this: As I type this and you read it, right now, somewhere in Canada a Manchurian Candidate is being prepared to do just what you want him to. Commit mass murder with a handgun and add further to your cause.I'll bet David Miller is wet with anticipation.

Verdon Brown said...

Just goes to show what kinda of a person you are to use anonymous as a name. Why dont you just say handgun owner. What you speak about which happens in this Country concerning criminals shooting people with handguns is true. This is why we must stop this. We are just trying to cover up the truth before it happens. Daivd miller and i use common sence. And can see the future like thousands and thousands of Canadians. When you speak it is so ovious that you know this is going to happen in the future. Just goes to show you the troubles we have with handguns in our cities. And automatic guns. You make me laugh. How many murders would it take before you would give up our handgun?

Thank you.
A voice for Ephraim Brown,
Verdon Brown,
NO HANDGUNS, NO FUNERALS.

Anonymous said...

I had trouble with my computer yesterday, that's why I signed on as anonymous Im still having problems so I'll put my name here. It's Eric .I'm well aware of who you are and you and your entire community have my deepest sympathies regarding your loss. Thank you for confirming that you are part of a cover up.Judging by your response I seem to have struck a nerve with you . Tell me , how close to the truth is my theory? So let me answer a few questions that you posed. Yes I own handguns, but mine were legally purchased with money earned through honest labour, unlike the illegal ones that the criminals in your area purchase with the proceeds if their illegal activities. As to how many murders would it take for me to give up my handgun,the answer is just one more: MY OWN. Because the only way that you will be able to get it from me is over my dead body.Furthermore, I simply cannot believe that you would ally yourself with a racist such as David Miller. Proof? Well here it is. During the long "summer of the gun", I was saddened by the daily reports of young black men and women losing their lives. One in particular was the slaying of Yvette Miller, the young 23yr.old who was felled by a stray bullet while out celebrating her birthday with friends. There was the usual blurb from the Mayor but nothing really serious about anything he said. And then came the Boxing Day shooting of Jane Creba.Pretty, young,blond and WHITE Jane Creba And what happened next? You had the WHITE mayor David Miller, the White Premier Dalton McGuinty and the White Prime Minister Paul Martin all standing united saying "WE MUST BAN HANDGUNS".Ask yourself this: Where were these three gentlemen when your grandson was a victim, or any of the other seventy- odd young black men and women who are no longer with us? Do you honestly think than any of those men will be bouncing a black baby grandchild on their knees any time soon?Nooo way they won't. Want more proof.Check out the wording of the motion that Toronto City Council put forth ( www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2008/cc/bgrd/m16.1/pdf.) and check out the only two names of victims mentioned . I'll save you the trouble: Jane Creba and John O'Keef. Both innocent victims, and both white. When you meet with David Miller again , ask him this and see his reaction. Your best allies to help curb the gun violence in this country, and Toronto in particular, are the very people that you insult by levelling all the blame at. It's us, the law abiding responsible hand gun owners. We are your best bet, not some inadaquate socialist Mayor ( he went to Havaahd, he knows what "Sigmund" says about men like him) You need us as friends. Lets see if you have the intellegence to do it.

Anonymous said...

Where are you Verdon.

Verdon Brown said...

Still at work trying to ban handguns.

Bill O' Rites said...

Verdon Brown said...

"Still at work trying to ban handguns."

Don't you mean still working to leave people defenceless against criminals?
A largely disarmed UK has double the violent crime rate of the US & double the home invasion rate, with three times more burglaries committed whilst the residents are present.

Why?

Because the criminals are armed & their victims aren't - that's why.
Criminals themselves admit that they fear an armed victim far more than they do the Police.
Your subjective view of firearms leaves you incapable of considering this matter in a rational manner, thus negating whatever points you wish to make.

Dustin said...

Well said Bill!

verdon brown said...

Thanks to handgun owners like you, this makes it easier for the criminals to get handguns to do these things. The wild west days are over. Remember, 30-40% of these guns are our own handguns in Canada. I would like to debate more about handguns with you but i have better things to do. Thank you .

Verdon Brown
A voice for Ephraim Brown
NO HANDGUNS, NO FUNERALS.

Dustin said...

Verdon, Bill probably doesn't own a handgun as they are banned in the UK, but just out of curiosity, 30-40% of what handguns are your own handguns in Canada?

As far as your dream of making it more difficult for criminals to get handguns by banning them - ask the folks in the UK how well that is working. There is a thriving black market full of handguns. With hundreds of millions of firearms in the US & Canada alone, you are not even likely to be successful in reducing the number of handguns available on the black market for criminals, much less eliminating them.

Just look at the great prohibition on Alcohol attempted in the US - all it did was create a new market in illegal alcohol sales for warlords & thugs.

Eric said...

You would think that since the U.K.is an island with no unguarded border crossings that smuggled handguns would not be a problem. Everything needs to come in through deep water ports on container ships. I guess the criminals in the U.K. forgot to check up on the laws. But then if they did they wouldnt be criminals, would they. By the way Verdon, you never answered the previous post regarding the allegations of racism towards Mr. Miller. If he is truly your ally, shouldn't you try to defend him? Since you did not, and it took you so long for you to respond to the previous post,I must have been right. You should take off those rose coloured glasses of yours and listen to people like Dustin and others who write on this blog. We back up our arguments with those two things that socialists cannot even begin to fathom: Logic and fact. You respond with rhetoric and emotion.

I'm going to answer a few things for you
1) The Police are a reactive force and respond only when called. And believe it or not, they are under no legal obligation to actually respond to your cry for help. That's what the OPP in Caledonia did when the two news camera men were assaulted. An it was even caught on tape.
2)If a hand gun has only one purpose but to kill, then that would make every single member of the Totonto Police Force nothing more than gun toting murderers.I'll bet your buddy Miller has a few of these "killers" assigned to him for protection. I guess a hand gun can be used for protection, but only if you are a politician. I guess David Miller's life is more valuable than yours or mine.

And Verdon, I'll leave you with this to ponder...Why do the guards that work for Brinks and other such companies carry handguns? Just like the politician or celebs, pieces of paper with pictures of dead Prime Ministers and some English dame ( No disrespect to Her Majesty intended, I'm just trying to make a point)are more valuable than your life. If a hand gun can be used to protect these things, then I can also have on for my protection. One can only hope that CCW will eventually be allowed in Canada. Or maybe even open carry, that would be good as well.

Verdon Brown said...

It is very useless to debate handguns with handgun owners. I feel that i am just wasting my time but it is hard not to respond to your questions.

First of all, Daivd Millier sepends time with the families that are torn apart from violence and handguns and as you already are aware of, alot of these families are alot of black families and white. And are all racist of people. If you would do your homework you would know this about Mr. Millier. It was a very good try to try and use predgity in trying to save your handguns and trying to confuse it. But we are Canadians, we know different.

Good and evil. Good should always prevail over evil. Thats why law officers and peace officers and the people that pretect you are aloud to use handguns. If it wasnt for them the world would be all chasos. How can you not see this?

If it was up to you handgun owners it would still be like the wild west, everyone shooting up everyone. If everyone listend to you handguns owners every criminal in Canada and America would be carrying a handgun and saying they have it for protection. Which everyone would know, isnt true. So get real. Come down to earth and use common sence. You don't want to give up your hobby and collection to save lives.

For the reason it took me so long to respond to you handgun owners was because it is like talking to a brick wall. I would rather spend my time on the true Canadians who do not want handguns in thr cities. You talk about how David Miller wants to shut down shooting ranges in the City of Toronto. Did you recently hear the people talking about the big propain explosion in Toronto? The people said it didnt make much sence to have a propain tank in the middle of the city. This makes as much sence as having a shooting range by the union station downtown. And other shooting ranges across the City. It should be outside of the City, in the Country somewhere. Once again, just common sence.

Then you handgun owners switch everything around saying that theres no difference from a rifle, shotgun and handgun. But there is a difference. A handgun is a weapon of choice for criminals. You can conseil it very easily. Like i said, a handgun is made for one thing and one thing only, to kill people. A shotgun and a rifle are used for hunting animals, not people. Such as big game hunting, small game hunting, ranchers outwest keeping the crops free of rodents, the seal indurty in NL. It is the aboriginal birth right to hunt with a rifle and a shotgun. So there is a difference.

What are you going to hunt in a City besides people? So, i like it when you handgun owners leave all your opinions for the rest of Canada to see. They must laugh, laugh and laugh. Your doing my work for me by letting them see how crazy you handgun owners are.

So i will concenrtate on the people who use common sence in this Country trying to ban handguns.

By the way, why don't you send a letter or email to Ottawa, Stockwell Day asking them to pass Bill C10 and C35. What do you see wronge with these bills?

A voice for Ephraim Brown,
Verdon Brown
NO HANDGUNS, NO FUNERALS.

Verdon Brown said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Eric said...

You posted your resopnse twice and still could not correct your spelling and grammar. All gloves are off Verdon. I know you have suffered a great loss but you need to hear this:
You are exactly the type of man(?)that David Miller needs. Every time you hit the keyboard you show the world that you are a man of limited education. The uneducated in our society tend to follow Socialist and Liberal ideals because they lack the intellegence to think on their own. They prefer the "nanny"state with the government doing all their thinking for them. You are a puppet and your strings are being pulled by individuals who lack courage.

Dustin said...

Note: I removed the duplicated posting from Verdon Brown - I presume he clicked the post button twice accidentally as it was an exact duplicate other than the time stamp.

Verdon Brown said...

It is very simple to see what you have done. You have deleted my right spelling and left my wrong spelling for the world to see. But just because you cannot spell every word perfectly it does not mean your stupid as you say and a puppet on a string.

If you would go over some of your spelling you would see that you also have words spelt wrong. But anybody with a bit of common sence can read through this and know what I mean.

You will probably delete this to because you handgun owners do not like to hear the truth.

Dustin, by the way. I did make a mistake by sending it twice. It is very obvious that you have deleted the right and left the wrong one. I like it when you do these things because it shows the world that you are not capable to have a debate about handguns. You always take the easy way out so that the other side of the story will not be told.

By the way Eric, I am PC right to the back bone.

So anyway, I do not have anymore time to waste on people like you handgun owners.

Keep up the good work, keep posting your stupid ideas about handguns. You are basically doing my work for me, which the rest of the world can see.. about some of you handgun owners.

A voice for Ephraim Brown
Verdon Brown
NO HANDGUNS, NO FUNERALS.

Verdon Brown said...

This is the right response that Dustin has deleted. Dustin that was very immature of you to do by deleting the right one and leaving the wronge one...

It is very useless to debate handguns with handgun owners. I feel that I am just wasting my time but it is hard not to respond to your questions.

First of all, Daivd Miller spends time with the families that are torn apart from violence and handguns and as you already are aware of, a lot of these families are black and white families. And are all race of people. If you would do your homework you would know this about Mr. Miller. It was a very good try to try and use predgitest in trying to save your handguns and trying to confuse it. But we are Canadians, we know different.

Good and evil. Good should always prevail over evil. Thats why law officers and peace officers and the people that protect you are aloud to use handguns. If it wasnt for them the world would be all chaos. How can you not see this?

If it was up to you handgun owners it would still be like the wild west, everyone shooting up everyone. If everyone listend to you handguns owners every criminal in Canada and America would be carrying a handgun and saying they have it for protection. Which everyone would know, isnt true. So get real. Come down to earth and use common sence. You don't want to give up your hobby and collection to save lives.

For the reason it took me so long to respond to you handgun owners was because it is like talking to a brick wall. I would rather spend my time on the true Canadians who do not want handguns in there Cities. You talk about how David Miller wants to shut down shooting ranges in the City of Toronto. Did you recently hear the people talking about the big propain explosion in Toronto? The people said it didnt make much sence to have a propain factory in the middle of the city. This makes as much sence as having a shooting range by the union station downtown. And other shooting ranges across the City. It should be outside of the City, in the Country somewhere. Once again, just common sence.

Then you handgun owners switch everything around saying that theres no difference from a rifle, shotgun and handgun. But there is a difference. A handgun is a weapon of choice for criminals. You can conseil it very easily. Like I said, a handgun is made for one thing and one thing only, to kill people. A shotgun and a rifle are used for hunting animals, not people. Such as big game hunting, small game hunting, ranchers outwest keeping the crops free of rodents, the seal industry in NL. It is the aboriginal birth right to hunt with a rifle and a shotgun. So there is a difference.

What are you going to hunt in a City besides people? So, I like it when you handgun owners leave all your opinions for the rest of Canada to see. They must laugh, laugh and laugh. Your doing my work for me by letting them see how crazy some of you handgun owners are.

So I will concentrate on the people who use common sence in this Country trying to ban handguns.

By the way, why don't you send a letter or email to Ottawa, Stockwell Day asking them to pass Bill C10 and C35. What do you see wronge with these bills?

A voice for Ephraim Brown,
Verdon Brown
NO HANDGUNS, NO FUNERALS.

Dustin said...

Actually Verdon no I did not realize the second copy was a spelling correction, I did not scrutinize them to that level. Perhaps you could try something called spell check before you post as it would save you the duplicated effort.

Dustin said...

Verdon, you never answered my question: "30-40% of what handguns are your own handguns in Canada?"

Why did you bring up the fact that violence affects all races of people? I'd hope that would be obvious to everyone.

You once again mentioned handguns are portable. Of course they are portable, exactly the way they are designed to make them easy to carry at all times for those of us who wish to be able to defend ourselves, which of course includes the Police. Where you & I differ is you wish for only the Police & criminals to be armed, leaving law abiding citizens disarmed & helpless by a Government system who at the same time Can NOT protect them from the armed criminals.

You make wild accusation that those of us who choose to be armed for self defense wish to have "everyone shooting up everyone" - if that is the case please name one example in any of the States that allow open or concealed carry of handguns? Studies show that CCW permit holders as just one example of handgun owners easily studied are many times more law abiding than the average citizen. We don't go around "shooting up" as you falsely accuse.

You claim that handguns can only be used to hunt people. Actually you are wrong in more ways than one. First of all, you certainly can hunt animals with a handgun. In fact it is gaining popularity to hunt anything from Bear to deer with a handgun as it takes a high level of skill & closer ranges to the hunted animal. Secondly, due to the fact that handguns can be easily carried at all times people who carry them are always prepared & able to defend themselves from all animals, whether they are criminal animals walking on 2 legs or natural animals walking on 4 legs who might just happen to be hungry at the moment & as a result planning to have you for dinner one night.

You say only the Military & Police should be "allowed" to be armed with handguns. On average Police are usually outnumbered by 400 to 1 or more depending on where you look. The Police can not be everyplace at once. If you choose to leave the Police as the only line of defense between your family & criminals that is your decision to make. Just don't talk about forcing your decision on everyone or you're likely to hear the voice of Freedom shouting back at you.

Bill O' Rites said...

Vernon

You still aren't addressing the question:

IF banning handguns is a cure-all for firearms crime, then WHY have we seen a fourfold increase in such crimes since they were banned in the UK?
All other forms of crime have fallen over the same time frame & the Police here are increasingly armed, so tell me how disarming law-abiding citizens has benefited them & the public at large.

Your poor spelling & grammar is of no concern; your blind faith in removing citizens' means to defend themselves & a belief that a poorly trained Police can do this for them IS of grave concern.

I have limited opportunities to practice with a handgun - biannual visits to the US - yet I routinely outscore serving Police Officers in practical shooting matches because I STILL practice more than they do & in a manner far more relevant to a "live" situation than their annual qualification.

Armed, law-abiding citizens & their guns AREN'T the problem: armed criminals who know their victims are disarmed most certainly ARE.
The fear criminals have of being confronted by citizens who have the means to defend themselves is a recorded FACT.

Please have the common decency to base your views on more than emotion & the biased pronouncements of HCI & the Brady people.

Verdon Brown said...

I am sorry but I cannot debate this problem with you handgun owners anymore because you have your opinions and I have mine and they do not match up. So I will concentrate on the people in Canada that want to ban handguns. The public probably got both sides of our stories by now. Everything I explain you just switch it around.

The question you keep asking over where does the 30-40% of handguns in Canada come from used in crimes are stolen right here in Canada from our homes and rotting gun clubs. The rest of the guns come across the border from the states. We don't only have to deal with our problem in Canada but we have to worry about the US guns to.

By the way, you are not aloud to use a handgun in Canada to hunt animals. The laws from the US and Canada are very different. In Canada you cannot get a permit to carry a gun on your side or in a vehicle. If you are in Canada and you own a handgun you would have to have a handgun in a safe and the bullets in another safe in a seperate room. How would you defend yourself? It would probably take you a half hour to get all your things together. This is just a little bit of difference from the gun laws in the States then Canada.

I am not trying delibratly to pick on the handgun owners but to get rid of the handguns out of the criminals hands and giving them less axcess to handguns means you have to give up your handguns. But isnt it worth it to give up a hobby and collection to save lives. There will come a day where the people will have a say.

You will hear from me alot from the media in Canada in the near future. Especially in the new year if these criminals who shot my nephew go to trial.

David Miller and I and other groups across Canada are going to keep up our compaign to ban handguns in Canada forever. And Ephraims voice will be heard. My heart bleeds for him, my toung speaks for him and for all the other victims who fell from handgun violence.

Thank you for the debate.
A voice for Ephraim Brown
Verdon Brown
NO HANDGUNS, NO FUNERALS!

Eric said...

Well we are now in election mode.All firearms owners must remind the candidates this: In regards to a gun ban of any kind we have one word to say. NO! We will not be treated like the Aussies were, and we sure will not be the meek little sheep that the English were.There are over 2 million of us,and it's time all the law abiding firearm owners tell the politicians that "WERE MAD AS HELL AND NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANY MORE" No! to their slander. No! to their lies and deceptions. It's time.

Bill O' Rites said...

"You will hear from me alot from the media in Canada in the near future. Especially in the new year if these criminals who shot my nephew go to trial."

Be sure of your facts then, as those of us who care about freedom & the ability to defend ourselves will publicise ANY misrepresentations, falsehoods or dubious "statistics" you use.
Your complete failure to explain how banning handguns in the UK made us safer, when gun crime has risen precipitately proves the shallowness of your knowledge.
No doubt you will continue to rely upon emotion, rather than facts to promote your cause.

Eric said...

Hey Verdon, care to explain why there have been shootings AFTER your "beloved" David Miller shut those gun clubs. Guess the criminals forgot to read ( if they can) that this was supposed to curb gun crime.Any way I did some research on you and i have a few questions.
1)You say you are a registered owner of rifles and shotguns. I hope you do not have an optical sight on any of your rifles because your "beloved one" will declare it a sniper rifle and then where will you be. What will your arguments be then when the socialists come to take poor little Verdon's gun from him? Who will speak for you or defend your rights then? Certainly not the people you are trying to stab in the back right now. Actually we would rally to your defense because we believe in freedom and personal responsibility.

2) Are you on this crusade of yours because you failed to protect your nephew when the first shot rang out? Are you feeling guilty because your first instict was to duck for cover rather than sheild the innocent children at that party? Or the fact that if Gerald had not let his son stay up so late that night he might still be here? These questions may seem cruel but they are not intended to be. They are simply questions that anyone in your situation would ask of himself. Before you rage against us and blame us you should seek to make peace with your own soul. I hope that you have been offered grief counselling to deal with your loss and pain.Because there are 3 million plus law abiding firearms owners in this country who are also mourning with you, as we would do with anyone .
3) Speaking of Gerald, where is he in this anti handgun crusade of yours?

My final bit is this. In the so called "Wild West" where every man who chose so wore a six gun ( God bless Sam Colt)there were fewer per capita murders in the five major railway towns in the period 1880-85 than there were in the so called "civilized" cities of New York and Boston in one year. As for every criminal carrying a handgun and claiming it was for self defense a criminal in an open carry state would not display it because they would not be able to provide proof of ownership. With shall issue CCW states the law abiding would be able to show their CCW licence if asked to . The criminal would run away or try to shoot it out with the cops.If challenged the law abiding would obey and listen to a police officer if challenged. In fact open carry would be the best because the law abiding could justify their actions and provide proof when challenged.They have nothing to fear. So if you are ever in a state that allows open carry and you see a guy or a woman in Wal-Mart pushing a baby carrage, with a cell phone on one hip and a Kimber Model 1911 ( mine is an Springfield 1911 longslide with a ported barrell...Nice..)on the other hip that is a person you can trust.

bigWhisky said...

I was not familiar with the area this shooting had taken place... did a small google search and came up with some revealing comments.

I hail from edmonton, ab, in the community of Millwoods.
Molotov Cocktail, semi auto handgun, and assault rifle capital of the West.

Now, I really don't know about you all, but I've a deep seated hatred for Ebonics speaking, Thug for Life Fools, white or black, asian or arab put your favorite here, " ". And these Toronto areas sound just like another carbon copy reproduction of the 1980’s South Central LA Cities of Compton and Watts, CA, USA.

Vernon, maybe you should work on banning, Violent Video Games, Gangster Rap Music, Underage Drinking, Underage Smoking, or rampant youth Drug Culture, hey fella’ take your pick.

Young adults these days seem to know more about the easy life; usually by scaring the shit (by all means necessary) out of every other hard working citizen in our country, as opposed to getting a job and helping their community out. And they do it just to emulate some Gang Bang Image they've cultivated from our stupid North American Gangsta' Subculture, and that damn MTV video or Kill em’ All Movie of the week…

I'll tell you one thing, banning handguns is a waste of yours, and my time... life is too short, and your anger not very well placed. Especially when you are trying to pry from my locked and secured 1000lbs gun safe (ammunition stored separately in its own safe), something I hold dear to my heart. Freedom to legally acquire, collect and use firearms.

Here is what some brave souls have to say about the “Jane Strip” west end TO’
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jane+and+sheppard

1. Jane and Sheppard 9 up, 3 down love it hate it

An area in Toronto Ontario. Its part of the Janestrip and realllyyyyy close to Jane and Finch. Its now just as bad as Jane and Finch with all the gangs and stuff, but its still soo kool! It just recently got worse, and now theres like a shooting every week, but thats the hood for u.


1. Jane and Finch 206 up, 109 down love it hate it

Jane and Finch is not exactly "PLAGUED" with violence and crime. It has more crime than some other parts of Toronto, and it's been somewhat worse this summer (2005). But there are so many wonderful, talented, smart, kind, hardworking people who live there, too. I wish people would stop being so down on Jane and Finch, because bad expectations only perpetuate the bad realities.
"I wish you would stop thinking you have to be a thug just because you live at Jane and Finch."
by Mukul Sep 3, 2005 email it 2 comments

2. jane and finch 137 up, 101 down love it hate it

Many people consider this the most crime infested neighbourhood in Toronto, the drug dealers and gangs have leaked out to all directions of these streets for quite a while, it is comparable to some parts of LA or Chicago in '86. However there are still many phonies and doushbags who use the name of the neighbourhood to scare ppl when they have no back
"My buddies went to jane and shepherd to fight some guys and they got jumped by 26 ""edit""
by the angry mexican Dec 13, 2004 email it 0 comments


3. jane and finch 79 up, 50 down love it hate it

Firstly, Jane and Finch is a great neighborhood. It is located in Toronto in the former North York region. Although I cannot deny the fact that Jane and Finch has a some flaws, it is wrong to categorize everyone that lives in Jane and Finch as a looser and ganagster wannabes. Jane and Finch was one of the first Government housing projects in Toronto. Due to this there are a lot of immigrants there, who are rather desperate, which, in a way explains some of the activity that goes on in that area. Despite all the negativity that people associate with Jane and Finch, there are a lot of scholars there who are attending post secondary school and are making something of themselves.

4. jane and finch 49 up, 22 down love it hate it

Jane and Finch is neighborhood in the city of Toronto that is predominantly populated by African Canadians. It is known for its gun and drug crime. Many of the gun crimes are a result of gang warfare...

Jane and Finch is the worst ghetto in Toronto.

5. jane and finch 109 up, 134 down love it hate it

Notoriously the worst neighborhood in Toronto, plagued by crime and violence.
Wear kevlar if you walk down to Jane and Finch.


Peace and Respect, my arse!!! Get control of your own neighborhood, before you come for my handguns.

Cheers

Eric said...

When I accidentally typed in Dumbvid Miller, Google asked me if I meant David Miller.I clicked on it and here I am. It's funny how even a computer knows what an idiot that guy is.

Eric said...

Just recently a good friend of mine was the victim of an attempted break and enter.

Basically it went like this:

Her husband works steady night shifts.One night around 11 p.m. someone tried to kick in their back door. This woke her up and also got her 70 .lb. Lab into a frenzy. Who ever was out there was not frightened off by this as they next tried to kick in a basement window. This individual kept up the assault on both doors and windows trying to get in.

She called 911 to report the attempted break in. After about 15 min. this individual gave up trying to gain access. The police arrived 32 min. after she first called 911. From her house to the closest police station is a mere 40second drive Yeah, 40 lousy seconds.

This individual was eventually apprehended trying to break into another home a few blocks away. He was high on drugs and armed with a knife.

A barking dog and even alarm decals on windows did not deter this person from trying to break in. And if he was successful the result would be a raped and murdered woman, a murdered family pet and a widower husband.

She and her husband asked me what could they do for extra protection.

I looked right at her husband and said these exact words: " If you've got a gun ,teach her how to use it. If you don't, get one and both of you learn how to use it. The best thing to do is put a gun in your hand before you put a phone in it. 911 won't protect you and neither will the police if it takes them 32 min. to respond to a potentually life and death situation ".

I'm sure all the whiners will respond that my advice is wrong. Well too friggin' bad. If the politicians and cops and anti-gun people up here don't like my attitude and point of view,there is a part of my body you can kiss.

As for me, anyone who breaks into my home would not be putting my life in danger, they would be risking their own.

Dustin said...

Thanks for sharing that Eric. I agree with the advice you gave 100%!

Anonymous said...

Gun control. Yeah, they've got the control part right. Control the arms, control the people. Right?

Listen, Verdon: Cars and motorcycles kill more people far faster than guns. Are you willing to give up your vehicle? Probably not... Despite having a perfectly good transit system...

Oh, and don't dare speak to me about "banning". You clearly don't a logical grasp on what's going on. You're speaking out with EMOTION, and NOT LOGIC. My grandfather was killed in a hunting accident with a long gun. So what? That's what shitty education (on his friend's side) will do. I have my license (PAL/RPAL), and am damned proud of it.. There's no relation, so why should I be ashamed? Logic is great!

What you need to be "attacking" is the LACK of education. Teach them that VIOLENCE is not required to settle altercations.

Violent societies wont benefit from an arms ban, and peaceful societies do not need one.....

Lose the delusions of grandeur.
Cheers.

Dustin said...

Well said!

Eric said...

The Canadian Coalition for Gun Control agrees that most guns used in Canadian gun crimes come from the Unites States.While this is true,to blame your so called lax laws as the problem is totally un fair.

What lax gun laws do you have? That a law abiding citizen with no criminal record has the Constitutional right to not only own a gun, but to use it in defense of one self. Hardly a lax law in my opinion.

Their problem is typical of the Left-Lib crowd in that they refuse ( or are genetically incapable of )to accept blame for their own short commings. It's not your lax gun laws, but our lax border that is the problem. England is an island 40 miles from France and thousands more from the nearest U.S. port. American made firearms that end up there is the Anglo's border problem, not a U. S. gun law problem. Just like Mexico.

I guess it's easier to blame someone else than to actually solve you own problems.

Dustin said...

Great points Eric.

Scott Manning said...

Mr.Brown has been crying for a handgun ban for years. I don't know how he plans on taking the guns away from the people who already aren't allowed to have them. All such a ban would do is make life more miserable for law abiding gun owners, meanwhile, it would do nothing to cure the problem of unlawful gun use. Also, he is ultimate hypocrite, as he wants to keep his guns while calling for me to give up mine. He should go get a life and get out of mine.